Your understanding of Islam is wharped my friend - the comments you make are ignorant, irresponsible and false. Would you like me to point to the numerous crimes against humanity "Christians" have made? Yet no Muslim sits there and calls all Christians terrorists. You should pray for yourself first....

Neil, thanks for checking in. If you would like to let me know exactly how my comments are ingnorant, irresponsible, and false, I would be more than happy to hear you out. Two things stand out to me in your comment:

1. It's true, many people have done horible things in the name of Christianity. However, they do so in direct contradiction to Scripture and the commands of Christ.

2. Actually--Muslims DO call all Christians terrorists ("crusader" is their actual term) If you would like to see an enlightening video, I would recommend going here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciOGS6r97oE

Wo Wo Wo, in all ways Neil is correct in what he accuses you of being. This thing about Sawa Waltan has nothing to do with what you are saying and teh argument that you assert. She said that there is a clash of civilizations, which can be argued since no such clash exists...(if there was a clash of civilizations, Islam would not be the fastest growing religion in America and would not be growing at the rate it is in Latin America.

If you are part of the majority in Brazil, meaning that you are part of the society that is oppressed, than my all means Islam is the religion that teaches you to object to your oppression and stand up for yourself.

if you want to focus on a video, than choose one that isnt from the perspective of someone that doesnt like Islam, at the least get it from someone objective.

Terrorist and Crusader do not mean the same thing. Actually, Muslims do not call all Christians terrorists or crusaders. I am a muslim and I dont consider you either of these. You need to study Islam before you make such wild accusations. I am thinking that you are part of the society that has the power in thier hands and see that Islam has the power of allowing the Afro-Brazilians and Indigenous population to question their subjugation.

Thank you

WeeZie...thanks for stopping by. A couple observations about what you have said:

1. I just mentioned the video for illustration purposes...not because I am focusing on it. We could also mention the Nick Berg video, and countless others from the region. Kids being trained as suicide bombers, women being beheaded or stoned...the list goes on and and on. Is this what the "oppressed" Brazilian society should aspire to? Or perhaps Brazil should become another Sudan.

2. First, you defend the term "crusader", then say you don't call us by that name. I have no doubt that you are the very tolerant individual you claim to be. However, you have to be blind not to see the evil nature of worldwide Islam. I'm sorry if that offends you--I just couldn't think of any other way to put it.

Perhaps you would be interested in examining more closely the claims of Christ. Instead of conquering by the sword, he "laid down his life for his friends". Instead of having wild convulsions, he cast out demons. Christianity is the true "religion of peace" because Christians serve the Prince of Peace."

Oh, I have the greatest respect and love for Jesus, he was truly sent from God and preached the oneness of the all mighty....BUT...contrary to the statement you made, Christianity was spread through the sword...the term Crusader comes from the Crusades...and we all know the crusaders didnt "lay down thier lives for thier friends"...they murdered and pileged. Though you might serve the Prince of Peace, no where in the world do we see that peace...
Brazil is the perfect example...the majority of the population is oppressed, women have very few rights...well they have many rights but the laws arent implemented...millions are in poverty...and I ask you, how does Christianity better the lives of those people? it teaches that they should accept their position in life...
Islam teaches that we are to submit to God and no one or nothing else.
Certainly you can focus on these Videos...but they arent representative of Islam. Certainly i can talk about how the Brazilian government during military rule from 1964 to 1985 and even today slaughters teh Indian population...you tell me, can that be considered something that proves christianity is violent and suchforth?
you are confusing the teaching of Islam with the actions of Muslims...and we all know, that is a grave danger, because you will only focus on the negative and thus come to a conclusion that is skewed.

WeeZie,

Interesting comments. Thanks for taking the time and interest to debate.

I should like to point out that you accuse me of confusing the teaching of Islam with the actions of Muslims--and yet in the beginning of this post you quite readily condemn Christianity by the actions of those who call themselves Christians. Interesting contradiction, that.

I also find it amazingly audatious that you would complain about the rights of women in Brazil, when the rights of women in the Islamic world are quite non-existent. How can you even have the courage to make that comparison?

One more thing: I have heard the argument from Muslims before that they respect and love Jesus. Jesus referred to himself as the great I AM. To deny this (as Islam apparently does) is to call him a liar. You cannot have it both ways. Either he loved and respected, or he is a liar.

the contradiction was made on purpose, i was showing you that you comparing the actions of muslims with Islam would be like me comparing the actions of Christians to the millions that have died under the Christian armies and such....

as far as the issue of women goes, the teachings of Islam as they were practiced 1400 years ago contradict how muslim women are treated now, nonetheless, if you would like look at Islam and women, look at the true nature of islam instead of how how women are treated in Muslim countries....that isnt to say that we shouldnt be concerned with the issue...as far as i am concerned, it is a central issue to in the Muslim world BUT you cannot judge Islam on how people act....

Yes, Jesus is one of the most revered messengers of GOD but i do not see where he directly referred to himself as the son of God, not to mention that the Gospels were written 40-70 years after Jesus died....hhmm

it is widely know that in Brazil, husbands that kill thier wives often go unpunished and Rio and Sao Paulo have murder rates that are higher than ANY where in the Muslim world....I can make comparisons because many of the social ills rapant in the Muslim world are present in Brazil...and i wont even mention the racism towards Afro-Brazilians and the Indians

WeeZie, thanks again for taking the time to debate this. Also, thanks for not taking over my site like cyber-jihadists have done to other sites critical of Islam.

I was glad to see you state that the Muslim world needs to change in the way they treat women. I would also add that they need to rethink the way they treat people of other religions (ie the Christian guy in Afganistan), as well as their way of expressing their opinions (blowing things/people up as in the case of Hamas, the cartoon protests, the Nick Berg beheading...the list goes on). Add to the list also their attitude toward Israel and Jews in general, and the whole cultural dialogue might actually get somewhere.

As to Christs claims, He states in the book of John that "before Abraham was, I AM." The pharisees knew exactly what he was talking about, which is why they tried to kill him on the spot.

When Peter said that Christ was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, Jesus replied by saying that God had revealed it to him.

Those are just two of the many biblical affirmations of the Deity of Christ.

As to Gospels, they were all written by eye-witnesses.

The question is, what are you going to do with Christ? You can trust the word of Islamic doctrine, and try to claim that he was a good person, while at the same time denying the essence of who he is, and of his redemptive work on the cross.

Or, you can accept him as your true Lord and redeemer--and be assured of forgiveness of sins and peace with God. Peace with God--that is true peace...what an indescribable joy!

Understand that on a political level, I am opposed to the rise of radical Islam and the return to a midddle-age mentality that it represents. On a personal level, I wish that all those who call themselves Muslims--including you--could understand the boundless pleasure of peace with God through Jesus Christ.

I believe that the Muslim world needs to change and become Muslim because the practices of how women are treated and such are not Islamic. I think you have a false assumption of Islam due to being only around Christians your entire life. Thank you for the wonderful offer but no thanks...
you continue to propose there events as an example of Islam...you mentioned Nick Berg like two times during the course of this dialogue and i dont see the link between him and Islam...you continue to point to deviations from Islam as evidence against Islam...

Luke 19:27 (New International Version)
27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

WHAT IS THIS????????? DOES THIS NOT CALL FOR THE KILLING OF THE ENEMIES OF CHRIST???????

in the time of Muhammad SWA, the Muslim community and the muslims were under attack so he made a decree that they should kill the emenmies of Islam because they were trying to destroy the Religion and when he uttered those words, the Muslims were at war with thier enemies....so you seek to choose HORRIBLE examples to somehow show that Islam is not peaceful or things of that nature when in reality, you have to look at the historical context of everything...

So are you telling me that Jesus was both a peaceful person AND he called for the death of somoeone who wouldnt accept him?

The Pharasees you speak of tried to kill him because he claimed to be a prophet just like Abraham, just like the Meccan's tried to kill Muhammad SWA when he said he was sent from GOD...

The truth is that the bible was written a LONG time after the time of Jesus so how can it be 100% factual, you know yourself that only like 16 ot 18 of the bible are actually the words of Jesus....
and the rest is from people who NEVER met JESUS...

in the book of Matthew, it says - Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me"

and than...

in the book of John it says - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

So Jesus was all powerful AND of himself couldnt do nothing?

If you want to discuss religion with me or anyone at that, you must stick with the doctine....the doctrine is what makes the religion, not the people...you focus only on what people in the Middle East or elsewhere do...certainly when look at christianity, i look at the rationality behind it and see how things work or dont work out and not what some Christian did or did not do

and you have have alot of interest with the Nick Berg beheading, you should read this

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_members&Number=293458248&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=1#Post293458248

just a lil thing to think about...

WeeZie,

Not sure what that last link was supposed to prove. Besides being a certified "tinfoil hat" conspiracy theory--the guy in question is still a Muslim. How does that help your argument?

As to the Luke 19 text--surely you did not read the whole chapter. The verse is at the tail end of a story Jesus told--the person uttering the words is the lord--the main character of the story. Luke himself gives us the reason Christ told the story:

"Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately." (v. 11)

The whole point was that Christ was telling his disciples that the kingdom he came to establish was not a political one--that one day there would be judgement, but that now was the time for them to be faithful servants and invest in the spiritual kingdom.

Also, check out the dialogue of Jesus before Pilate:
John 18:33-36 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Also, you missed something important in the texts you tried to present as a contradiction: Christ says in Matthew 18 "All authority in heaven and on earth HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME!!" Given by whom? By God the Father, to whom he was completely submissive. This passage is absolutely consistent with the passage in John you mention.

You ask how I can believe the Bible. My question to you is, what is there in the Bible that you can prove is wrong? Another question: you claim to love and respect Jesus. What is your source of information about Jesus? How can you love and respect him if you don't even believe what his disciples wrote about him?

There is probably alot more I could say about what you wrote, about the assumptions you have made about me, about the Muslim world, etc. Instead, let me end with a verse from the same chapter in Luke that you mentioned above. You gave credit to a bad interpretation of one verse, perhaps you will give credit to the right interpretation of this one:

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (v.10)

That includes me (nobody is born a Christian, Christ had to search me out), and it includes you. WeeZie, we are both on the same footing before God, condemned by our sins. My understanding of Islam (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is that it tries to show it's followers how to reach God through submission to him. Unfortunately, there is no way we can be submissive enough to attain the necessary holiness to reach God. God, in his immense mercy, has throughout the ages sought out man. The Bible is the story of his search--from Genesis to Revelation.

The offer stands. It's not my offer, but God's. Peace with God is available to you through Christ.

Once again, my intention is not to convert you because you should believe what you believe and I shall believe what I believe...there is no doubt that Christianity is a wonderul religion and that I dont even bother to argue...fundamentally, every religion tells people to be good people and praise God and defend themselves and the such...
the flaw in ur argument is that if i love Jesus, why do i not believe what his disciples said...but the disciples you speak of never met Jesus, well the writers of the Gospels never met Jesus so i dont see how the argument is sufficient in any way...
as far as the beheading thing goes, you can call it what you will, conspiracy theory or not but when their are facts to support something besides the "official story" than it would be naive to follow blindly and accept every sentense of what is told in the media
your understanding of Islam is flawed in that Muslims submit ourselves to God and in that process, we try to be the best we can...we dont try to attain Godly status or anything like that, we are the creation of God.
your understand is also flawed in that you honestly believe God, whom you admit is all powerful and all knowing needs to...himself...create a son and offer a sacrafice...for whom...for himself.
so ur telling me that God created Jesus simply to sacrafice him so he himself could forgive peoples sins? why cant God forgive people for thier sins just liek that? why the sacrafice? couldnt Jesus tell people that if they are christian, their sins or forgivin?

Please get back to me

and you can also believe what you wanna believe, i am sure you are also for the war in Iraq...check out my blog
weezieinc.blogsport.com

I checked out your blog. Nice picture of Che...of course living where I do, I see his picture all the time. If I had money to burn, I would buy the following two shirts:

http://www.thoseshirts.com/noche.html
http://www.thoseshirts.com/reagan.html

You have me pegged pretty well as to my political leanings. I have read all (or at least all I could stand) of the conspiracy theories--they all seem to point to some mysterious overall plan which nobody seems to be able to explain fully--just that it is sinister, it is worse than terrorism, and it is controlled by George W. Bush. Who, incidentally, is dumber than a post. Go figure.

What I am more interested in, however, is people's spiritual condition. The condition of the world will not change until people change inwardly--whether they be American, Brazilian, or Outer Mongolian.

You seem to have more information than I as to the writers of the Gospels and their contact with Christ. All four of the writers of the Gospel knew Christ. John was called "the disciple whom Jesus loved." It doesn't get any more personal than that. When John was in his old age, he wrote in one of his general letters about "that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, and our hands have handled of the Word of Life..."

A couple of misunderstandings you seem to have about Christ:

1. Christ was not created. According to the book of John, "In the beginning was the Word (Christ). The Word was with God, and the Word was God." Christ is not a creation, rather He created all things (Read Hebrews chapter one). Of course this speaks to the trinity, which Muslims naturally deny, but which the Bible clearly affirms. Suffice it to say that Christ was not created.

2. Two attributes of God are at work. First is his love. When man sinned, God loved him enough to want to bring them to himself. The second attribute is that He is perfect in justice. This meant that there had to be some payment for sins. Thus God the Father sent God the Son--who was fully God, and yet submissive to the will of the Father--to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins, to allow us to have peace with God.

Think about that for a minute. The eternal, almighty God loved you so much that he was willing to make that sacrifice. That never ceases to amaze me.

And there, it would seem, is the main difference between Islam and Christianity. The very best I can be cannot come even close to the righteousness required for me to have peace with God. Somebody had to make peace with God in my place. Christ--100% man and 100% God--was the only one who could do that.

I am really enjoying these debates. You are sharpening me. Please feel free to write back as often as you would like.

As I am myself enjoying this, its really interesting...and entertaining
One question though, you urself admit that God sent down Jesus right? so why do you worship Jesus more than God if God, the one who sent Jesus is ultimetly the one that decides your judgement...that is something that has always confused me...
well, I am a student and my interest is in politics and sociology so i am a bit less focused on doctrine because I try to focus on the current world and its everyday happenings...
hahaha, i like those two shirts, very funny...i can see that you support the neo-conservative agenda...
i will pose the following questions to you...and i want you to say why instead of saying they are crazy...
1. What was wrong with Che?
2. What is wrong with Hugo Chavez?
3. Do you support Lula?
4. How effective do you think Lula's Zero hunger program has been?
5. What are you views on Simon Bolivar?
6. Are you of Spanish descent?
and finally
7. What are your views on the Latin American socialist revolution...Bol. Ven. Arg. and Brazil kinda and many more, including Mexico (which isnt Latin American per se but a leftist may very well win the coming election)
their is no conspiracy theory, what i have on my blog is written by some of the most educated intellectuals and teachers in the United States and the Videos i have are from the BBC and such so to say they are conspiracy theory would be wrong...rather they are Controversial Theories that if true would be be very harmful for the friendly image of the Crusade in the middle east

oh one more question...
why do you like reagon?

And I cant just reread your BLOG, I cannot believe your proof of the "terrorist nature of islam" is a HATE SITE!
haha good work

thats like me, instead of looking at doctrine, tell people to formulate thier opionions of Jesus and Christianity off of
http://mindprod.com/religion/kristianity.html

now is that right?
come on...its like Justifiying slavery based on what the KKK says

Hey, sorry this took me so long. Let me comment on your last comment first, then I will hit the questions you asked me. As I read the site you posted, I found myself agreeing with more than 50% of what it said. Of course he takes some things out of context and has a faulty understanding of what true Christianity really is--but he seems to be motivated by abuses he sees perpetrated by Christians, and rightly so. (By the way, in number 11, we see the author's real target: George W. Bush)

As to the site I linked to, I would challenge you to prove the author wrong. I believe he also makes that challenge. The reason I posted it is that I see people here in Brazil becoming infatuated with Islam as kind of an anti-American antidote. This is like taking cyanide to cure a headache.

Now on to your questions:

1. I am sure Che had many fine qualities. He represents, however, the leftist mentality that is creeping like a bloody tide over Latin America. This I disagree with wholeheartedly. This is my political perspective. It has roots in my theology, but I do not base my fellowship with other believers--or my friendship with non-believers--on whether or not they like Che. I am also not shy about saying I do not like him one bit.

2. There is no time for me to list all that is wrong with Hugo Chavez. I live "right next door" to him and am watching his movement very closely.
One intersting thing for you to do would be to study the rise of Adolph Hitler and compare it to the rise of Hugo Chavez. Uncanny. I would also suggest reading "The Gathering Storm" by Sir Winston Churchill for a good perspective on what happens when the world does nothing in the face of a tyrant (such as Sadaam Hussein or Hugo Chavez or Adolph Hitler), or worse, even flirts with him.

3. Lula has surprised me. I saw him at a rally back in '89, and at that point he was pretty much a Castro clone. When he was elected, however, he has pretty much continued the economic and political policies of his predecessor--Fernando Henrique Cardoso--who I feel should go down in history as one of the greatest Brazilian presidents of all time. Lula has disappointed many here with the corruption in his administration (something that never happened with FHC), but at this point it looks like he will be re-elected, mostly because his oppostition is made up of a bunch of clowns.

4. I take a dim view of any program that takes public money and gives it arbitrarily to any sector of society. I like it even less here in Latin America, where the custom of giving food to people so they will vote for you is an age-old tradition. Fome Zero is just a fancy name for that tradition.

5. According to Wikipedia, Simon Bolivar was "...a great admirer of the American Revolution (and a great critic of the French Revolution), Bolívar described himself in his many letters as a classical "liberal" and defender of the free market economic system." That being the case, I like him alot. (Hmmmm, I wonder if Hugo Chavez has read that part?) I have heard him described as the "George Washington of Latin America." One huge difference: when George Washington had served two terms, he voluntarily left office. Simon Bolivar set himself up as a dictator--a step Chavez is hoping to emulate.

6. My friend, I am as "gringo" as they come. I was born and raised in the US. I do, however, have a tremendous love for Brazil and it's people. My wife is a beautiful Brazilian from the city of São Luís, Maranhão. I have been here off and on since 1989 (including a two-year time of study from 1994-1996), and now reside here permanently.

7. Obviously, the leftist trend here in Latin America concerns me a great deal. However, my hope is not in any one political system. Capitalism and the free market system have their own flaws. Ultimately, all systems are run by people, and people--according to the Bible--have sin natures that corrupt them and everything they do. Ultimately, that is why I am in Brazil. I want to share the good news of how people can have peace with God--and victory over their sin natures--with the Brazilian people. I also don't mind sharing it with people who comment on my website;-)

My best friend here in Brazil is a Baptist pastor who is a huge Lula fan and quite leftist in his policies. We have had sharp political debates, but we have sweet fellowship because we both trust the God who "holds the heart of the king in his hand."

Here are a couple of questions I have for you:

1. Are you a Muslim because of heritage, or are you a western convert?

2. If you are a western convert, what was it that made you convert?

Oh don't get it confused, I have not constructed my views of your religionb based on some smear website. As far as the website goes, it is run my Ali Sina, a Muslim apostate and how would it be possible for me to refute a persons reason for leaving a religion. As you take information from that website, you should also be mindful that the website is atheist in nature...now how is it that a christian man is getting his information about another Abrahamic religion from an Athiest outlit for religious hate?

as far as your question is concerned, I was born in Afghanistan and thus, I have been raised as a Muslim...but my experience as a Muslim most obviously contradicts your views on how Islam is...
Unlike in modern Christianity, there is no seperation of the congregation based on race...which I think is the main reason many African Americans in the United States and increasingly, Afro-Brazilians in Brazil see Islam and its egalitarian structure so inviting...a Muslim is a Muslim no matter nationality or crede or language and in this spirit, we pray together.

I am alarmed by the observations you made about Simon Bolivar...considering that you are linking the views of one person in the 18 century with those of someone in the present. The American Revolution was a fight for freedom and the Bolivar was motivated by that idea and thus emulated the same idea in Latin America...but, you call Bolivar a dictator? At that time, name nations that didnt have some sort of dictatorship?

Well you might say the United States...well that is one, but than again you must consider that the entire Black population in America was under slavery...so I ask you, if a nation has elections and picks new leaders fairly but still subjugates part of its population for its economic incentive, how can you say that isnt a "dictatorship" albiet the "gringos" elect among themselves whom shall be the next leader of the United States that shall include slavery...

While I now see that your American background has contributed greatly to your "moral" "economic" and "social" outlook, I must still refute your claim that Chavez is a dictator...
while I understand that you are closer to the activities of Chavez, I must still challenge that Chavez is a dictator...everything he has done has been legitamate...he has won electiosn fairly....he had changed the constitution...not by decree but by gaining political power for his party and gaining enough power in the legislature...

you didnt even mention why you liked reagon so i might ask again, what did you like about a president that was PRO-APARTHEID...who lied about the Iran-Contra and thus violated the constitution...and funded guerillas or "terrorists" as they would be called in this day, against a legitamate government...
maybe growing up, you werent affected by his cut on welfare and most likely, you benifited from the tax cut he game to the people who were already LOADED....

you speak of free markets but what have free markets done to Venezuela during the past 100 years, they have put the majority of the population in poverty....

Brazil, that Miracle of Latin America is the MOST stratified society in the world, how did the liberal economics" help the average brazilian?

You can defend any policy that discriminates and oppresses while you yourself are in the power elite but not until you place yourself in the shoes of the poor can you actually see what true nature of state policies...and by that nature, i dont think the poor people arent complaining about Hugo...but I guess in your demoracy, only the rich matter

I am quite aware as to the athiest nature of the website. I am obviously not an athiest--however I do agree with athiests on some issues. The world is round. Radical Islam is a dangerous trend that is plunging much of the world into bloodshed. I have actually had some contact with the website's author. There are plenty of things we would disagree on, just as there are plenty of things you and I disagree on. Were you to start a site which in an interesting, articulate and convicing way exposed the falacies of athiesm (of which there are many) I would be very apt to cite it.

About Simon Bolivar: I am not the one linking Hugo Chavez to him. That would be Hugo Chavez who is doing that. Go figure. The more I read about Bolivar, the more I see that he would probably be horrified to be associated with such a tin-pan dictator.

As to Chavez and the constitution, I must ask: what good is a constitution if it is changed by the first person who amasses enough political power?

I'm sorry, I neglected the question about Reagan. Reagan brought America back from the brink of social disaster. The Vietnam war, the Nixon fiasco, and the failed Carter administration had reaked havoc on the American mentality. Reagan--with his easy smile and steady leadership--brought it back. He gave hope to those who fought against abortion (surely you can appreciate that), and he almost singlehandedly brought down one of the most oppressive regimes in the history of the world. Incidentally, he also supplied arms to those in your country who were fighting for their liberty--some of the same ones who attacked the US later on. Go figure.

I'm sure he had his issues and made his bad decisions, but he will go down in history as one of the greatest presidents of all time.

I'm curious as to where you are getting your information about Brazil, as it seems to be seriously warped. Sure there is stratification here (as there is in most countries, Muslim ones included). However, Brazil being the MOST stratified society in the world? Come on now! Who is making this stuff up?

If you want to play the game of naming the abuses of American society, I bet I will win. Slavery, shameful treatment of the Indians, the current abortion holocaust--all of these and more are things my country of birth will have to answer for. None of these things, however, make Islam any more appealing. Here are a couple of interesting facts:

1. While "Christians" in the South excused the practice of slavery, it was the Christian churches of the North that took the lead in the abolitionist movement. Interestingly enough, slaves were usually bought from Muslim traders in Africa before being brought to the western hemisphere.

2. The Christian church is at the forefront of the current battle against abortion in the US. The leftists in the US (the crowd that attends rallys with Che Gueverra shirts where Cindy Sheehan is the main speaker) are almost unanimously pro-abortion. The fact that Muslims would identify with them is quite curious to me.

I was also quite unaware that I belong to a power elite. Is it because I was born in the US? What about Hugo Chavez...is he power elite? He has a whole army at his command. I'm just a guy living in Brazil, and I can't even afford a gardener. My Brazilian neighbor has a gardener AND a maid. Must be I somehow missed the "power elite 101" class.

But this is all politics. Good discussion material, but that is all. All human leaders disappoint. Lula, Reagan, both Bush's, Clinton (big time!)--I'm sure it must be a frustration to some that Osama has not been able to perpetrate another 9-11 in the US in the last five years.

Once again, the God I serve is the One who has the "heart of the king in his hand". I think I read somewhere that Muslims accept the Psalms. Is that right? If so, then you may know Psalm 121: "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills. From whence comes my help? My help comes from the Lord who made heaven and earth. He will not let your foot slip --He who watches over you will not slumber;indeed, He who watches over Israel
will neither slumber nor sleep." Nothing happens outside of His control--not even 9-11.

Let me ask you a question: what is your relationship with God? Where do you stand before him? If you were to die today, and stand before him, what would you have to say for yourself?

I personally would have nothing to say, for "in me there is no good thing." However, Christ--rejected by Islam--has made it possible for me to be completely at peace with God. Can Mohamed do that for you?

First of, there are many things which obviously you misunderstand about my political views and you use very horrible examples to illustrate how my argument us flawed. We shall speak of the religious talk later BUT...here it goes

1. As for Chavez, I believe that WHEN the majority of the population gives you their trust to lift them out of poverty, than they also would expect you to change the laws that were inacted under oppressive regimes....

2. Reagon brought down which regime? If you want to be a historic revisionist, than by all means, BE but if you are speakin of the USSR, it failed under its pressures from its domestic population as well as the HORRIBLE method with which Communism took hold in that nation...
best President of all time huh...how can a racist even be considered for such a title, i think a president needs to be pretty egalitarian if he were to even be considered for such a title

Oh where am I getting my information on Brazil, ahh I would say the United Nations Human Development Report and the Brazilain governments own report to the UN...but than again you are a conservative so you most likely dont support the UN and are with that "UN for UNETHICAL" school huh
but yeah, I did a research paper on the women's movement in Brazil so I have gotten REAllY interested in Brazilian society...thats one of the reasons i found myself on your site...
if you want to refute that fact you may, but i will say this, Brazil is not the MOST stratified country, Malali and DRC are more stratified but than again, you cant compare those regimes with that of Brazil so by every measure, Brazil is the most unequal

no one is America bashing and I am SURE you can point out thousands of social and political ills in the muslim world, that is something i wrote in my FIRST post...but you are argueing that such a system is better and i am refuting it...

also, you made a great point that Muslims were the actual slave traders but you must understand the nature of slaveery in islam and that of teh Christians...a great book on the history of Africa...Africans : The History of a Continent by John Iliffe, he offers a great examination of this issue...in Islam, slaves could be freed and most were integrated into the family, often becoming teachers and leaders...and with this idea, many slaves were sold off to teh europeans...

now, i am wondering if I should continue this anymore cause i believe that abortion point you bring up is perhaps the worst and most illogical point you have made...i might still be relatively young but even i see how horrible your argument is here...you point out that since Che and Sheehan are pro-abortion, than a Muslim cannot view things like them...where does that logic come from? Che was socialist, he was pro-egalitarian so I am fond to that...Cindy Sheehan and her supporters are Pro-Palestine, as is Chavez and they see the violent nature of the neo-con agenda, and that is where i link with them...
simply because i would disagree with one of their views makes me opposed to them? well ill put it like this, i am MORE anti-oppression and and anti-racist than I am pro-life...i think u should reformulate that approach

what i mean by the power elite is that obviously in the United States, you werent burdened when Reagan cut welfare and also, although you have quite a modest life in Brazil, i doubt you face the discrimintaion the rest of the population sees...
you are most likely paid twice as much as a black man and upto 4 times more than a balck woman
(once again, the latest UN figures)
so what i mean by power elite is that you dont feel the effects of state policies unless they harm your financial well being and you support state policies that would make your pockets fatter no matter how many Blacks and Indians are disinfranchised socially and economically.

The God I serve is teh God you serve brother, its just that you seek God through Jesus and I seek God without a third party. Muhammad (SWA) was not a God, he had no special powers, he was illerate yet he was an example for all Muslims to follow.

i do not know what will happen to be if I were to die right now, as I am a sinful person and thus will have to answer for my wrongs but nonetheless, from day-to-day, i continue to be the best person i can be...and thats all I can do...be the best i can be and fight oppression as much as I can...

by all means, i am a leftist and if you compare neo-marxism and Islam, they are VERY compatable...and my intellectual framework is built on a Saidist perspective of history and society...

By all means, lets continue to engage in this discourse but I would request that you speak to me like I am educated and not try to make little implications which you think I wont notice, such as the Abortion idea you brough forth...

Peace!

one more thing...if you read the Bible, my all means JESUS WAS A SOCIALIST and i would love to see how you can argue that Jesus supported the right more than the left...

Che, Reagan, Sheehan, you, me--all people with political perspectives based on our upbringing and contexts. I am well aware of Brazil's social ills: I live here. I also know that women can go to soccer games whenever they want, unlike Iran (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4751033.stm)

I am not assuming that you are not educated--I am sorry if what I have written sounds like that.

As to the abortion issue--it is the one issue which unites leftists in the US. While there are many pro-abortion Republicans, try being a pro-life Democrat and see how far you get. That is why I brought it up: how are these people in any way consistent with your religious views?

Enough politics. I must take serious issue when you say that we serve the same God. We most certainly do not. Did the God you serve seek you out--while you were in a state of rebellion against him--and offer you unconditional salvation? Does the God you serve give you the indwelling of his Spirit to comfort you and guide you? Does the God you serve love you so much that he has called you his son? Does the God you serve promise you a place with him in eternity, not based on any personal merit?

Jesus was definitely not a "Republican", but neither was he a socialist. According to his own words, he did not come to establish his kingdom in this world. He came--as I have mentioned before--to seek and to save that which was lost. When he was arrested, his disciples tried to resist. He told them to stop, and even healed the soldier wounded by one of his more agressive followers. He came to fight a much more important battle--the battle against sin. And, on the cross, he won that battle for you and for me, so we no longer have to fight it.

The Bible teaches that there will come a day when Christ will reign on Earth. It will not be a democracy, republic, or social experiment. It will be a divine monarchy where perfect judgment is dispensed. Until that time, we (believers) are not footsoldiers trying to esablish some sort of biblical law. We are proclaimers of the Good News that redemption and peace with God is available through Christ, and Christ alone.

"For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I would contend that I do not seek God through Jesus. Rather, God--through Jesus--sought me. In and of myself, I have nothing to offer God. I could try to serve him, even going to the extremes some have tried--and never reach a state of holiness whereby I could attain peaee with God. According to the Bible, "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." We are "dead in our tresspasses and sins."

If you want to understand true Christianity (as opposed to the Chrisitanity that is practiced by many), I would encourage you to read the Gospel of John. Let me know what you think.

Wow, so now you contend that Muslims and Jews believe in different Gods, that is amazing...well i guess Islam is a demonic religion huh mr. Robertson?
The way you describe your God is how you see God and how you choose the describe the missionary work that you do...it is in the same light that you seek convert that heathens and savages right?
here is my taughts...my religion teaches me that Jews and Christians follow the same lord I do and because of that, they are the people of the book but you are one of the first christians whom i met that argue Islam follows a different God...

and you cant be more wrong that the left's main issue is abortion...that is wrong, maybe the feminist left's core is that but the left is united under class struggle...

and when I said Jesus was a socialist, i am not talking about the future and when he cmoes back and that business, i am saying his sayings and teachings were rather socialist in nature...i want you to contend against that

Andrew,
awesome dialog! I fowarded this to my 25 year old son in California, unsaved, very political,and after 6yrs in the Air Force most of it deployed overseas decided to chuck his military career and move back to WNY. I just came back from spending a week with him in cali.
Please pray for him. My hope is that I will get him to come to church at Grace in Batavia to hear Pastor Shirk preach the gospel once or twice. All in God's timing.

By the way I love the way you guys fish in Brazil. We will continue to pray for you, and the sale of the house. Do you own the land with that? That seems to be an issue. I heard that investers come in and buy up the park and tell you you have 30 days to move your older trailer that you can no longer place in a nother park because of the age of it.????
Anyway your in our prayers, continue with God's work in Brazil. Hope you have a profitable time with your group coming from Florida.
IN HIS GRIP
michael